Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: There have been engineers, right, that have been working for the organization 10, 15 plus years.
These engineers were extremely successful in the data center and moving to the cloud.
They basically have to completely retrain.
[00:00:13] Speaker B: Right.
[00:00:14] Speaker A: So if you had a noisy communication protocol, then you may saturate your data transfer charges in the cloud. If you are optimizing for sustainability, you also often optimize for cost. Before you design your solution, start thinking about cost.
So cost on the timeline is being positioned early on at the beginning of the design, not like once the design is done, you try to make it cost efficient.
[00:00:45] Speaker B: Right.
[00:00:47] Speaker C: Hi, everyone and welcome to a new episode of our podcast.
Today we are having Dieter. Welcome, Dieter.
[00:00:57] Speaker A: Hey, thanks for having me.
[00:00:59] Speaker C: It's going to be a wonderful interview and of course we have our co host, Damian. How are you, Damian?
[00:01:07] Speaker D: I'm fine. I'm very good, thank you.
It's always a pleasure.
[00:01:12] Speaker C: Yeah, thanks for being both of you here.
Let's introduce our guest here.
[00:01:20] Speaker A: Hey, guys. I'm Dealer Mason.
I have been working in the cloud since 2013 at companies like Google, Netflix, Intuit, and most recently Roku. I'm also one of the Philips ambassadors.
[00:01:34] Speaker D: Excellent, excellent. It's good to have you here with us. We are, we were very impressed. We look at your site and one of the things that just immediately pop up is about the Phoenix ambassador and, and we have to ask, you know, how someone can become a single ambassador.
[00:01:55] Speaker A: I think you need to be volunteered by the foundation. It is not something that you can actively achieve.
[00:02:01] Speaker B: Right.
[00:02:01] Speaker A: You do a lot of outreach, a lot of public speaking, those kind of things. I know the founder, J.R. stormont, since 2016, well before the founding of the foundation and in 2016 at Re Invent, J.R. asked me the question, hey, does this cloud financial management have legs? And I said, you know, it's like an industrial kitchen where you have, you know, six, eight cooks.
And so it has to be cleaned up every day.
[00:02:34] Speaker B: Right.
[00:02:34] Speaker A: And that applies to the cloud.
[00:02:36] Speaker B: Right.
[00:02:37] Speaker A: You, you just don't never finish. You know, if engineers do work, engineers create waste, create anomalies, create challenges, forecasting. And so it's an ongoing effort.
[00:02:51] Speaker D: And after you get the title, is anything else that you do that you.
[00:02:56] Speaker A: Must do or there's a couple of responsibilities. Yes. So first of all, you have to be a certified finops practitioner, right. To become an ambassador. So and in addition, there are ambassador meetings that we have on a monthly basis.
[00:03:13] Speaker B: Right.
[00:03:14] Speaker A: And there's different regions there. We just had the North America ambassador meeting, but there's also like a global ambassador Meeting and doing that. The the foundation shares information and they may have projects for which they are looking for volunteers.
[00:03:30] Speaker B: Right.
[00:03:30] Speaker A: And then the ambassadors can volunteer for those and drive, drive these efforts.
[00:03:36] Speaker D: Interesting, interesting.
So also we look into your site and we also noticed that you were one of the people that were doing Phenotypes. I think even before it was called Phenotype, you were an early day promoter of financial reductions or optimizations.
How was it in those days?
[00:04:03] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean when I left PayPal and I interviewed at various companies, right. I saw there's a bunch of positions open at Google and I said like hey, what's the worst that can happen, right?
They tell me no.
[00:04:17] Speaker B: Right.
[00:04:18] Speaker A: So I applied for a Google position and Google has an interesting hiring process where they have queues where you don't actually meet your manager. The queues completely anonymously interviewed and then you get in a sense randomly assigned to a job that requires that role for which you interviewed.
I had the Fortune where I was able to meet my future manager briefly.
And so when I started working at Google, they realized that their public cloud offering is growing faster then they can build data centers, right? Data centers typically is like a two year effort and so they were looking for internal inefficiencies that they could carve out and assign to the public cloud.
[00:05:13] Speaker D: Interesting.
[00:05:17] Speaker C: That's awesome.
So I'm curious about like how was the transition from that. Now that you mentioned about the data centers, have you seen the transition from doing finops or doing finance related stuff from data centers to what you are doing now in the public cloud?
[00:05:37] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean public cloud, to be honest, everything is new, right? Whatever you knew before, in the data center we do capacity management where we are looking at three to five year forecasts and then we procure hardware and the hardware is intentionally over provisioned so that the workloads can grow into the hardware over the amortization period.
[00:06:04] Speaker B: Right.
[00:06:05] Speaker A: Of the three, four or five years, whatever that period is.
And so for example at Intuit we migrated from 26 data centers all into Amazon Web Services public cloud, right. And there have been engineers, right, that have been working for the organization 10, 15 plus years and we're extremely successful.
[00:06:31] Speaker B: Right.
[00:06:31] Speaker A: There are products like TurboTax or QuickBooks that are, you know, my CPA QuickBooks, right. My accountant is using QuickBooks. So the these engineers were extremely successful in the data center and moving to the cloud they basically have to completely retrain, right. They start fresh.
So one thing that we did notice is after the lift and shift migration we had 24% waste in the cloud.
[00:07:00] Speaker B: Right.
[00:07:01] Speaker A: And we used six waste sensors to determine that. Waste sensors are like little scripts that collect information and store it in the central repository where it then can be surfaced by engineering owner or business owner. And over the course of four years, we got the waste down from 24% to under 5% and we increased the waste sensors from 6 to 34. So we sort of raised the bar and at the same time we drove the cloud waste down.
[00:07:37] Speaker C: That's really interesting. So you basically made an automate, well in house waste detector for you and now you are making increasing, let's say the suite of capabilities for that. And that's super interesting.
So now that you mentioned that the migration that happened on this topic is that now that there is this trend or this debate about the repatriation stuff.
So going back to on premises because of the cost of the cloud is too high, what are your thoughts on this topic and on this trend that is going on?
[00:08:17] Speaker A: There are a couple of use cases where that may make sense, right.
And as an ambassador, I do a lot of outreach, right. I go and talk to a lot of people, typically multiple organizations every week, right. And there are some organizations that were able to move cloud workloads back into a data center quite successfully, but those were niche workloads. Dropbox being one of those examples that moved from the simple storage service on AWS to their own storage solution in a data center, which they can manage more efficiently. When you think about it, the cloud is a managed service.
Aws has over 175 products, right? And all these products are managed, right? Someone else is carrying the pager when something goes wrong. And so that comes at a cost. Now economies of scale can reduce the cost, right? Because AWS has dozens of data centers with, with hundreds of thousands of virtual machines.
So they can reduce the cost. But overall I think there is sort of like a 20% premium if you compare like, for, like in a data center to the cloud. And that is the management overhead, right. However, I also consult with Hennepin county in Minnesota and they found that certain technologies would be very challenges to implement in the data center, specifically text to speech, or speech to text, those kind of things. Building that in a data center would take years.
And in the cloud it's just a product, right? You just use the product and it works for the most part, right? So the, the, the elasticity of the cloud has benefits, right? If for example, TurboTax, the United States has one tax day, which is April 15, right? And for some reason People, they, they sort of file the taxes a couple of days before.
[00:10:22] Speaker B: Right.
[00:10:22] Speaker A: You can file them anytime after like February.
[00:10:27] Speaker B: Right.
[00:10:27] Speaker A: Because this is when your tax records come in, employee and, and those kind of things.
[00:10:34] Speaker B: Right.
[00:10:34] Speaker A: So you can file them anytime. But most people like file them, you know, one, two days or on tax day.
[00:10:40] Speaker B: Right.
[00:10:41] Speaker A: So Intuit had this huge problem that they needed to have the data center capacity for the tax day and then the rest of the year this was unused.
[00:10:51] Speaker B: Right.
[00:10:51] Speaker A: And in the cloud you can simply scale up maybe two weeks before tax day.
[00:10:56] Speaker B: Right.
[00:10:57] Speaker A: And then you're ready, you have the capacity and then after tax day you can release that capacity, which also means that you are not going to be billed. So that elasticity has, has the benefit that you can scale up, but it also has in a sense the opportunity that if something is unused, you need to turn it off, otherwise you still incur a cost.
[00:11:22] Speaker C: No, that's super interesting and yeah, it's a great reflection that, because I don't recall when we were talking Damian, about this regarding load testing peak kind of things. For example, retailers like with these Black Fridays Christmas events. And this is something that definitely needs to be evaluated before considering.
[00:11:49] Speaker D: This is an interesting example.
First time I think we talk about taxes and. Yeah, yeah, first of all, nobody wants to pay.
[00:11:56] Speaker A: That's interesting.
[00:11:58] Speaker D: Of course they will leave it to the, to the last day.
But, but yes, elasticity is a good example of how the cloud can help you.
And of course, if you want to move that into the on prem. Of course, if you always want to need the hardware to be supporting on your top, on the, on the, you know, the, the worst performance, let's say. Right. So you're wasting a lot of money.
And of course, I think the importance, we, we talk in this show several times about the clarity, the clarity that the cloud offers you. And I'm not sure you, you can even get to the point of that clarity on the cost clarity. Right.
Yeah. On, on, on premise, there's a lot of ways that you don't know, right?
[00:12:47] Speaker A: Yeah. And you know, there's also surprises, right. When you have an on premise workload, the data transfer is free.
[00:12:55] Speaker B: Right.
[00:12:56] Speaker A: But you move into the cloud, all of a sudden you need to pay for the data transfer. So if you had a noisy communication protocol, then, you know, you may saturate your data transfer charges in the cloud. And that is a common thing that I see when people migrate, that they sort of forget about certain things.
[00:13:15] Speaker B: Right.
[00:13:17] Speaker A: Some of the virtual machines, they don't come with storage with Disk storage, right. Or virtual disk storage.
So you buy the virtual machine but you can't run an operating system on it because it does not have ephemeral storage. So you need to attach elastic block storage and that has also an additional cost.
[00:13:39] Speaker B: Right.
[00:13:40] Speaker A: So that is another common mistake that I see that engineers do when they size workloads in the cloud that they forget those things.
[00:13:51] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:13:52] Speaker C: Moving on to that topic, what are your recommendations when you have to do an exercise of sizing workloads in the cloud? What do you recommend? Because I'm sure you have done a lot of sizing and estimation exercises or what are your main recommendations for doing that kind of things?
[00:14:15] Speaker A: That may sound weird, but one of the best things to get your engineers to provide high quality work or deliverables in the cloud is to ask for a certain percentage of your engineers to be certified.
It gets, you know, at Intuit we had to mandate that 50% of the engineers need to get some, any AWS certification, right. It doesn't matter if it was professional associate, specialist or those kind of things, right.
Just because, you know, once you have enough certified engineers in the team, it will cross pollinate.
[00:14:55] Speaker B: Right.
[00:14:55] Speaker A: The like an uncertified team member can ask the certified team member for advice.
[00:15:01] Speaker B: Right.
[00:15:02] Speaker A: And that is, it's really the knowledge that is driving the quality of the work in my experience.
[00:15:08] Speaker B: Right.
[00:15:09] Speaker A: And it sounds a little bit barbaric that you just mandate 50% get, get certified.
[00:15:15] Speaker B: Right.
[00:15:16] Speaker A: But it, it helps the engineers, right. They are more employable with their next employer.
[00:15:23] Speaker B: Right.
[00:15:23] Speaker A: And they are able to help and, and they know when they need help.
[00:15:31] Speaker B: Right.
[00:15:32] Speaker A: And all these cloud vendors maybe, except for Azure, right. They are very welcoming to provide solution architects for projects.
[00:15:41] Speaker B: Right.
[00:15:42] Speaker A: Have that person sit with your team for like two, three weeks and provide advice and insights into best practices, well architected framework and those kind of things.
[00:15:55] Speaker C: That's really interesting. I haven't thought about that. On on because in my company there is definitely some incentives on do that. I know that there are companies that even give bonuses to people that get certified.
So there are different programs that are, that are interesting in, in the topic.
[00:16:13] Speaker D: No.
[00:16:13] Speaker A: Yeah, bonuses is definitely better than layoffs. I.
[00:16:16] Speaker C: No for sure.
[00:16:21] Speaker A: For sure.
[00:16:23] Speaker D: Definitely. Also I, I, in my view when I was learning and learning all the time there are new things and when you do the certificates or recertifications, you only found out there were new things that are going on and new optimization or another key features that might help you in optimizing or helping the workload. Not only on the economic level, but also on the efficiency when you work. Efficient. In any case, you know, the pillars, any pillars that you choose will help you eventually economically.
[00:17:03] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly, exactly. And this is where well architected comes into play, right. Every cloud vendor has something that, you know, provides best practices and guidelines on how to, how to work in the cloud, how to build things in the cloud.
[00:17:20] Speaker C: Totally. And regarding this skill set or this training on educational level, what do you think are the skills or the, you know, the education that someone can get to become a good finops practitioner?
Especially here from the technical perspective, because we here are coming from the cloud world, but from that side, what are your recommendations on formation and education and skill sets?
[00:17:51] Speaker A: You know, that is a very good and interesting question because the engineers, they know how to write, write code, right?
[00:17:57] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:17:58] Speaker A: And that includes things like even how to use a GitHub or GitLab, right? How to use libraries, right. A lot of the code uses public open source libraries, right.
Which are maintained outside of your organization, Right. And could have a security risk with them, right? Yeah. We just recently had a situation of a Linux compression command line tool that had a, a, a vulnerability exposed on purpose.
[00:18:31] Speaker B: Right.
[00:18:33] Speaker A: So there, there. And then the engineers are also familiar with other tools like pager duty, for example, right. So that they can integrate with that and observability tools.
[00:18:44] Speaker B: Right.
[00:18:44] Speaker A: Like a datadog, splunk, new relic, those kind of things.
[00:18:48] Speaker B: Right.
[00:18:49] Speaker A: So the, the engineering skill set is not just really focused on, on writing code, right. But there's all these other systems that they need to become quite proficient in, Right. And I would say that the, the cloud is yet another system that they have to become proficient in.
[00:19:10] Speaker B: Right.
[00:19:10] Speaker A: And as I said, there's over 175 products when I checked the last time and just in, in Amazon Web Services. The same is true for Google Cloud. The same is true for Azure Cloud, right?
[00:19:22] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:19:22] Speaker A: And depending on where that engineer is working, they need to know maybe a dozen, two dozen services and need to be familiar with them quite inside out, right? Quite know the details. So for example, a virtual machine on, on AWS works differently from a virtual machine on Google Cloud, right? Google Cloud is much more fungible when it comes to CPU and memory, while AWS has certain slots that you can get.
[00:19:54] Speaker B: Right.
[00:19:54] Speaker A: And then there's also differences with additional ancillary services, right. Like the simple storage service on AWS and the lifecycle management and then on just Google Storage, Cloud storage, Right.
For example, on the AWS side, when you have an etched out object that is aged to Colder, less expensive storage.
[00:20:24] Speaker B: Right.
[00:20:24] Speaker A: It gets rehydrated into a staging area.
[00:20:28] Speaker B: Right.
[00:20:28] Speaker A: While on, on Google Cloud cloud storage, the, the object is available instantaneously. However, the aging out is a 365 day time period. Right. So as you access an older object, it is available within, you know, 10, 15 milliseconds. However, you have to pay for it to age out again.
[00:20:53] Speaker B: Right.
[00:20:53] Speaker A: While on the AWS side it may take some time to rehydrate and then it stays within that staging area for 30 days, after which it, it gets cleaned out. So the engineers really need to understand all those intricacies.
[00:21:08] Speaker B: Right.
[00:21:08] Speaker A: When you look at Elastic Block Store on the AWS side, there is GP2 and GP3 options. Right now you can switch between GP2 and GP3. However, many engineers are not aware that there is a cooldown period of 4 hours for switching back.
So while the switch is in most cases seamless.
[00:21:29] Speaker B: Right.
[00:21:30] Speaker A: And it can be done online, you don't have to take the volume offline if you decide to make any other changes, you need to wait four hours before these can be applied. So the engineers really need to understand how these cloud services work or you will get surprises.
[00:21:48] Speaker B: Right.
[00:21:48] Speaker A: For example, we had a situation where an engineer used a Terraform script to instantiate a vendor solution. It was in a sense a SaaS solution that was self hosted.
And whenever they had a configuration error, they just tore down the cloud workload and instantiated again. And they did that, you know, 20, 30, 40 times. What they didn't realize is that they started orphaning those elastic Block store volumes, those virtual disk volumes that kept, you know, because the entire system was supposed to be a SaaS solution. So I think the volume was like 2 terabytes in size. And they had, you know, after a month of, of trying to install that software, they had like, you know, 160 terabytes of orphan volumes lying around that they were simply not aware because from their point of view, they were just running a Terraform script.
[00:22:47] Speaker C: Yeah. They are dealing with the consequences of doing that. Yeah, definitely. No, that's, that's an interesting use case. And I do agree that for doing optimizations and for doing finops work, you definitely need to know inside out the cloud services. I, for example, and I talk with Amien and with the people that we talk about about that. For example, I am much better in GCP than in aws and it translates only in the generalist things like system designs, cloud knowledge a bit. But then when you are actually using the tools, the proficiency that you have on the day to day basis is nothing compared when you are used to do a work with a provider all day for every day in your work life. Than for example, if I now have to switch to AWS on a day to day I will have to stay rolling and then if I am on DCP I am super comfortable.
I totally agree on that point.
[00:23:50] Speaker A: Yeah, agreed. I have the same observation. We actually use all three clouds in different proportions. The majority is on aws. But some of the data engineering workloads are running on Google Cloud because the data analytics offerings that come out of the box seem to be having more breadth and more depth and higher quality of the features.
[00:24:14] Speaker B: Right.
[00:24:15] Speaker A: And so the engineers, they have to relearn, right?
Instantiating a virtual machine on AWS works a little bit differently from gcp, right? And then if you go to Azure you can run something with DTUs, those are processing units and something that uses processing units for example, cannot use a reservation on the Azure side.
[00:24:39] Speaker B: Right?
[00:24:39] Speaker A: So again it's different.
High level, yes, they're all virtual machines, right. But how they actually work differs from cloud vendor to cloud vendor.
[00:24:50] Speaker D: It also impacts the automation when you're shutting down in awsure, when you need to deallocate in order to save. And this is a very important topic and a very important item that people need to know. Not only the DevOps but also the phenoms, right. When they're analyzing all the optimizations that can be done in the automations.
[00:25:20] Speaker A: For example, a good example here is on the Azure side, if you have a database and let's say you are an organization that only works from like eight to six, right.
And you're not really international, you don't really have engineers in other countries working, right. On the Azure side. What you do is you actually reduce the compute units for your database to the point where it is still running. It could still do like one query a minute, right. But it cannot handle the workload at peak and then in the morning you basically increase the processing units so that the database is able to handle the daily workloads.
[00:26:01] Speaker B: Right.
[00:26:02] Speaker A: Which is something that you can't do on AWS or gcp.
[00:26:05] Speaker B: Right.
[00:26:05] Speaker A: So again there's differences, substantial differences and you need to know how to take advantage of the elasticity of the cloud.
[00:26:14] Speaker C: Yeah, that's super interesting. I mean that's what we are also seeing is that coming from the let's say finops engineering perspective. So people that are used to do more hands on optimizations, such as the one that you mentioned about automation that you actually need to have the cloud knowledge to actually implement those. And that's what we are seeing. What we try to do is to increase the content and increase the awareness of that. It needs to be some technical content regarding that so that people are better in these practices in being able to how to reduce the compute capabilities automatically from 6pm so you need a script for doing that and how do you learn to do that script? And that's content that I think it's left to do in the finance perspective. But it's something that definitely is worth especially for more engineering. FinOps perspective.
[00:27:11] Speaker A: Yeah. And I agree. This is why I think that certifications are so immensely helpful.
[00:27:16] Speaker B: Right.
[00:27:17] Speaker A: Because you, you do get formal training, right. And. And some of the training that you receive, at least the foundational things, they will stay with you and then you know what you need to watch out for and where to get more information and when you need to get help.
[00:27:33] Speaker B: Right.
[00:27:34] Speaker A: So if you, if you have a big project coming up where you need to start a new workload, you know that there's a solutions architect that I can possibly invite to my project and we can whiteboard a couple of approaches of how we want to do that and get the feedback from the solutions architect.
[00:27:52] Speaker C: Yeah. And other thing I was the other day, it was at a meeting in. In Berlin. I was. I joined remotely and I was talking about trends for 2025 and one thing that they contributed when I was drafting the presentation is that there is.
What you mentioned about certifications is that there are specialties more or less in every pillar from the well architected framework. So there is networking, there is security, all this stuff.
Do you think it should be or it should happen in the near future that there is a certification of a specialty in cost optimization and in sustainability? Because it seems like there are two topics that are, you know, forgotten in that. In that area. And I think it's super interesting that the providers could gave a certification on that.
[00:28:47] Speaker A: You actually touch on a really important point, right? In a sense, yes, those certifications are required and interesting story. I actually worked with AWS on a cloud financial management certification.
However, because it would directly compete with the FinOps foundation, it was decided that not to proceed to offer this.
[00:29:12] Speaker B: Right.
[00:29:12] Speaker A: Because you can get a FinOps Practitioner or FinOps Engineer certification from the Philips Foundation.
And around sustainability, maybe there is something similar, right. The similar organizations where you can get sustainability certifications, hopefully they are technical enough for the specific cloud vendors.
[00:29:31] Speaker B: Right.
[00:29:31] Speaker A: A sustainability certification for AWS will look different from GCP and from Azure.
But overall I think yes, that is important.
At some point I also have a thought where cost and sustainability, there's a lot of synergies between the two.
[00:29:52] Speaker B: Right.
[00:29:52] Speaker A: If you are optimizing for sustainability you also often optimize for cost region specific.
[00:30:01] Speaker B: Right.
[00:30:01] Speaker A: If you move something to a more sustainable region, maybe it's also cheaper at that point.
[00:30:07] Speaker B: Right.
[00:30:07] Speaker A: And there's a lot of synergies however at the, at the foundation I don't see these merging.
You know rather the foundation may offer a sustainability certification but I'm sure that there is many other organizations that already offer something like that. So it wouldn't make sense to compete with it.
[00:30:31] Speaker C: That's a bad thing. I wanted to know the thoughts because when I was drafting this it was come to my mind like yeah, why there isn't there are these four pillars? Well there's six pillars and there are only I think three four. I don't recall the number of specialties now there are a huge amount of them and now with AI even more. But yeah, that's really insightful. I think people we know now the, the. The reason behind it. Definitely yeah.
[00:30:56] Speaker D: I think that everybody actually thought about it. I, I when I finished one of the first I think was in AWS one of my first I asked the same why don't you have a badge for But I didn't get so deep. I never, I didn't, I didn't know the answer back in there back in those time.
But yeah but I guess it we are now at now that we are in Christmas time.
It's a good question for, for you Vito to tell us what do you think or what do you wish or what do you think will happen next year in the phenops what do you see will what will develop? How do you see Phenox developing next year?
[00:31:40] Speaker A: I mean phenops. Let me actually look this up because we have a roadmap so I can tell you exactly what the focus will be. So implementing focus focus is the cloud agnostic billing format. Right. So that that's going to be one of the things that next year we are going to focus on finops scopes. So scope could be phenops for the data center. FinOps for the cloud, FinOps for SaaS, FinOps for AI those kind of things.
Cloud sustainability is another focus.
FinOps for AI we are actually thinking of a certification for that as well.
Then finops aware product decisions.
So this is all about shifting left right before you design your solution start thinking about cost.
So cost on the, on the timeline is being positioned early on at the, at the beginning of the design, not like once the design is done, you try to make it cost efficient.
[00:32:53] Speaker B: Right.
[00:32:54] Speaker A: And the last of the six items that we are going to focus on is the public sector. There is a lot of, you know, cloud usage in the public sector.
All the schools, all the libraries, every city, every county and every state. And then the. The federal government with its military.
[00:33:15] Speaker B: Right.
[00:33:16] Speaker A: They're all using cloud and there are some restrictions. Like for example, the budget is approved on an annual basis. So you get like X amount of million budget.
[00:33:25] Speaker B: Right.
[00:33:26] Speaker A: However, when you buy a reservation, you make a commitment for three years.
So now you are unable to buy these reservations because technically you don't know what your budget will look like in year two and year three.
[00:33:41] Speaker C: That's, that's super interesting and thanks for, for the insight on. On the roadmap.
Yeah, definitely Public sector is. I'm seeing from. From the subscription base that there are a lot of people from universities, schools and counties, which surprised me at the beginning.
But definitely I, when I started to dig deeper into the news as well with the. There was a. A contract from. From a large consulting company with the Earth. I believe it was the Air Force of the US So and also I've seen several things about the US strategy was one of the numbers and the home department of the UK as well.
They. They are starting working on the phenom.
[00:34:27] Speaker B: So you.
[00:34:28] Speaker C: Yeah, definitely interesting things on the public sector as well.
[00:34:32] Speaker D: Public sector and big companies as well.
All products are very strict with yearly budget. I think they have the same issues and it is very interesting. Thank you for sharing with us.
[00:34:45] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah.
Yeah.
[00:34:48] Speaker D: So again. So again for me it was very insightful and it was a pleasure to have you here with us.
Looking forward to see you again in the future sharing with our ideas and stories and roadmap.
And again I hope you had a good time.
[00:35:09] Speaker A: Absolutely. And thanks for inviting me and happy to talk again.
[00:35:14] Speaker C: Yeah, it was a pleasure. Dieter. We will leave all the links regarding your website and everything that you do on the description of the. The podcast and we hope we. We could have a future episode in, in. In 2025 for sure.
[00:35:31] Speaker A: Of course. Looking forward to it.
[00:35:33] Speaker C: Okay, so then both of you have a happy new year because we are on the dates and see you. See you next time.
[00:35:41] Speaker A: All right, take care.
[00:35:49] Speaker D: Sam.
